#WTH Mike Pence... on January 6 and the integrity of the U.S. constitution
Plus China, Ukraine and defense dollars
Three things from Marc’s sit down with former Vice President Mike Pence in this week’s pod:
Pence is a nice man. On January 6, 2021, he was an angry man. And not just at the Capitol horde.
He’s not surprised support for Donald Trump is plummeting.
He believes in the fight for Ukraine… because he knows our national security is at stake.
The reviews for Mike Pence’s new book, So Help Me God, have been mixed; and that’s no surprise given where the media’s politics lie. But in his quiet way, Pence spares little mercy for his former boss. And when the chips were down and a clown car of lawyers were urging POTUS to challenge the outcome of the 2020 elections, Pence put his foot down. Should he have done more? It’s not the easy question it appears; Pence did what was needed, after all. Should Al Gore have done more when his boss had sex with an intern in the oval? Should Walter Mondale have done more when his boss imperiled American security? Should Gerald Ford have done more when he boss turned into a paranoid crook? Probably, but they didn’t.
There’s more to like about Mike Pence: He’s running for office — that much is clear — but he doesn’t make it all about him. He loves the country; he loves the constitution; he loves the American people. That’s a nice change. He’s also totally solid on national security — at least from the POV of your podcast team… Tough on China, tough on Russia and for a stronger national defense. At a time when loud voices within the GOP are touting Obama’s mantra — “nation building here at home” — it’s nice there are some who remember the world is a safer place for Americans when Washington leads.
You may think Pence is not the man for 2024; that’s your call. But it’s a pleasure to have a decent set of choices, and if that begins with one decent man, all to the good.
A small final housekeeping note: No pod or sub next week. We are celebrating the holidays and our producer has expressed a strange desire to see her family over Marc and Dany. Go figure. We wish you all a Happy Chanukah, a Merry Christmas and a very happy new year. Thank you for listening, and for your support. D&M
HIGHLIGHTS
Tell us about January 6…
VP Pence: As I write in, So Help Me God, I'd always been loyal to President Donald Trump. He was my president and he was my friend. Whenever we had differences, and we had a number throughout the years that we served together, I thought it was important as Vice President that I express those differences in private, just between the two of us.
But in the days approaching January 6th and on that tragic day, things had to be different. And as I write in the book, I had made it clear for weeks to the President, that I did not possess the authority to unilaterally reject or return electoral votes that had been certified by all 50 states in the country. No vice president in American history had ever asserted that authority. And as I've said, there's maybe no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could pick the American president
But that day, I could never have imagined the violence in mayhem that would ensue. But I'll always believe that we did our duty that day, thanks to the courage of law enforcement, Capitol Hill Police that bravely stood the ground, federal law enforcement, and National Guard. Marc, I think turned a day of tragedy into a triumph for freedom because the elected representatives of the American people were able to reconvene the very same day back in the Congress, in the wake of the riot, and complete our work under the Constitution of the United States.
Marc: You heard them chanting, "Hang Mike Pence."
VP Pence: I did not hear that until after the fact. But I could hear people chanting and shouting, but I must tell you, I felt no fear.
Marc: You write, you were angry.
VP Pence: I was angry.
Marc: Are you still angry?
VP Pence: Well, as a Christian, and I reflect on my faith often in the book, So Help Me God, forgiveness is not optional. […] And in the days after January 6th, I prayed to show grace to the President over our differences. I've prayed for the President, told him I was. And I have also endeavored to forgive those who acted that day. Although I believe that those that were involved in the rioting and the violence at the Capitol need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as many already have been.
Marc: Did he ever ask about you, or call or try to reach you and see if you were okay?
VP Pence: We received no contact from the White House. And frankly when the President's tweet came across after two o'clock, that criticized me by name, I was angry. But Marc, I frankly didn't have time for it.[…] it was clear to me the President had decided to be a part of the problem. People were ransacking the Capitol and I just was determined to be a part of the solution.
Talk about the record of the Trump-Pence administration…
VP Pence: I'm incredibly proud rebuilding our military, securing our border, reviving the economy, 7 million jobs, energy independence, three Supreme Court justices that through this year now, gave us a new beginning on the right to life, made our liberties more secure, had America, standing tall in the world, standing with Israel as never before. That's a record I'll be proud of for the rest of my life.
And I think our first obligation is to tell that record, and also to speak about the opposition that we faced every single day from even before our inauguration, from the Democrats and their allies in the national media. Who whether it was the Russia hoax, whether it was impeaching the President of the United States for a phone call. Or whether it was after January 6th when Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi tried to misuse the 25th Amendment in a punitive manner that was never intended when it was adopted in the Constitution. There was just this consistent effort of resistance that we saw. And I think we have to tell the story of what we did and what we faced against.
But I must tell you the second piece of it is, I'm not surprised to hear some of those numbers [showing poll support tanking for former President Trump].
Are you for “strategic ambiguity” on the question of defending Taiwan?
VP Pence: America stands for freedom, and I understand the genesis of strategic ambiguity in our relationship with China. But the truth of the matter is that when you see the decade of trade abuses by China, when you see human rights abuses against their own people, Christians, Muslim Uyghurs, and other religious minorities. And then when you see the ongoing military provocations that have taken place in the Taiwan Straits and also the South China Sea, I think now more than ever, we need to send a deafening message of support to the free people of the Asia-Pacific, in Taiwan, in South Korea, in Japan, in Australia, that we are going to stand with them. And I believe it is time for us to move away from ambiguity and send an unambiguous message that we will stand with those with whom we have treaty obligations, who are free people, and that includes Taiwan.
There’s a growing divide in the GOP over foreign policy… and whether Putin is a threat…?
VP Pence: I've met Vladimir Putin, I've spoken to him one-on-one, told him things he didn't want to hear. And I will tell you, my instinct is, Putin only understands power. I don't think it's any coincidence that ours was the only administration in the 21st century where Putin did not attempt to redraw international lines by force. He did it in Georgia during the Bush administration. He did it in Crimea in the Obama administration, and now he's moved against Ukraine again in the Biden administration. And I believe that was a result of the fact that not only had we redoubled our commitment to our national defense, largest increase in our national defense since the days of Ronald Reagan under the Trump Pence administration.
But also, we were willing to allow the armed forces of the United States to use American power to advance our interests, whether it be cruise missiles into Syria, whether it be turning looser armed forces to take down the ISIS caliphate and their leader. Or whether using military force to eliminate the most dangerous terrorists in the world. So I think the credible threat of the use of force in a strong military made the difference.
What about more $$ for defense?
VP Pence: I'm a fiscal conservative. I think we ought to be scrum of the federal budget every day and every penny, and make sure it's going to the right places. But the United States of America is the leader of the free world, and we need to continue to lead the free world in giving the Ukrainian military the support they need to defeat the Russian army and defend their sovereignty.
What about Ukraine?
VP Pence: In March of this last year, my wife Karen and I were returning from the Middle East. We stopped in Poland to thank relief workers at the outset of the Russian invasion. And we were told then, that we were actually going to be permitted to go into Ukraine to a refugee center.
We crossed the border, went five miles in. And Marc, I think anyone in the sound of my voice today would've been horrified to see what I saw. There were images that I'd only seen in black and white in my life. Long lines, all women and children, women of every age, children of every age, people dragging behind them and carrying on their shoulders, all their earthly possessions, fleeing from the violence being inflicted in the unconscionable invasion in Ukraine. And it simply broke my heart.
And it convinced me that this is a moment when America needs to stand strong. We are leading the world now. The West is rising up and standing strong, but it is because we've provided American strength in the lead. And I believe as the new Republican majority in Congress will do their duty, will make sure that Ukrainian people have the support that they need to defend their sovereignty, to defeat the Russian army, and restore the peace. And we cannot send any other message. Because anyone who believes that Vladimir Putin will stop at Ukraine has, as we say back in Indiana, another thing coming.
I was in Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania in the first year of our administration when 120,000 Russian troops were raided along their border. And make no mistake about it, while Ukraine is not a NATO ally that requires direct American involvement, those countries are. And I think making sure that Ukraine has the ability to defend their freedom and their sovereignty today is the best way to not only restrain Russia, but to prevent greater tragedy in the future.
Full transcript here.
SHOWNOTES
Former Vice President Mike Pence on his new book, 'So Help Me God' (NPR, November 22, 2022)
‘So Help Me God’ Review: An Unflashy Number Two
Loyal to God and Trump, Mike Pence Defends His Record (NYT, November 16 2022)
Mike Pence Refuses to Connect the Dots (The Atlantic, November 15 2022)
‘Did not end well’: Pence’s new memoir details split with Trump (Fox, November 15 2022)
Joy Behar called Mike Pence’s faith a ‘mental illness.’ Then she called to apologize. (Washington Post)
A Christian Case Against the Pence Rule (NYT)
Why the 2024 Race is Eerily Quiet (Politico, December 13 2022)
Pence on Trump’s 2024 Run: ‘I think we’ll have better choices’ (New York Times, November 15 2022)
Mike Pence staffs up with an eye on 2024 (Politico, November 22 2022)